Mazzy: The atheist who wrote that article is just plain wrong.

Just because he cannot feel or see or touch or hear it, does not make it so for every one.

Are you saying he cannot feel or see or touch or hear something that others can?


Mazzy: Yes, I am saying that he cannot see, feel, touch or hear things that others can. I can see God's love, I can feel it, I can touch it and I hear it.

If you are saying that you have some perceptive power that is not present in others you need to back it up. Otherwise it is just you saying that you have this. There is no reason to think you really do have this special power of perception and others don't.

Or conversely, that you have "normal perception" and others are "handicapped."


Mazzy: I do not have special powers. I have the Grace of God.

You say you have it. People can say anything. For all I know, you could be lying. For all you know, you could be wrong. Unless you can show how having the Grace of God is different from not having it, there is no reason to think you have it and someone else doesn't.


I knew a lady growing up who said she had an elf on her shoulder. She called it Belkin. She seemed perfectly normal in every way, but sometimes she would talk about this elf she claimed was always with her. She said it was invisible to others, but it spoke in her ear to keep her on the straight and narrow. However, others looked at her shoulder and did not detect any sign of an elf there.

Do you think it is possible that this lady really had an invisible elf on her shoulder than only she could see? Do you think it granted her and no one else the Grace of Elf and allowed her to perceive what others were blind to? Is that at all likely? Do you think her perception of Belkin the Elf was just "different" from everyone else, but equally valid? Or do you think it is at least possible that she might have been wrong about the elf? How much do you credit her elf story?



Marilyn: As long as our beliefs make us better people, does it really matter how we get there or what we believe comes after?

I think so. People are claiming that they know what comes after. The claims are completely unfounded but they are using these claims to manipulate others. I don't think that's right.


Marilyn: You have a point there. Religion when used to manipulate is wrong.

I am glad you agree.

However this is the main feature of Christianity. The main, central, foundational tenet of the religion, is that if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior you will go to Hell instead of Heaven when you die.

People are claiming to know that Heaven and Hell are the two choices, and using the threat of hell to manipulate people into accepting Jesus and professing Christianity.

This is wrong.


Marilyn: But, to me, it's not the belief that's the enemy.

If it's not belief that is causing this travesty, then what is?


Marilyn: Beliefs are harmless! So, maybe the lady with the elf was wrong. But as long as Belkin wasn't harming anyone or causing her to harm anyone, then I personally don't care.

I certainly never tried to talk her out of it. At that level, I do not care either.

However if she was saying that she knew I was going to hell because I did not believe in Belkin I would certainly have something to say about that.

If she said that Belkin was definitely real, and the problem was that my heart was just closed to Belkin, then that is different. If she says that it's just me, I just don't have the Grace of Belkin, and that I wasn't trying hard enough to accept Belkin, or that I was trying too hard to accept Belkin, or I wasn't humble enough, or sincere enough, or I had too much doubt to perceive or understand Belkin, then I would definitely have a problem with that.

If she was saying it was obvious that Belkin had created the universe and knitted the first human from an old sock, I might just shake my head and go on. However if she was insisting that Belkin Sock Design be taught alongside evolution in science class, we would have a serious conflict.

If she claimed that it should be illegal for gays to marry in this country because Belkin said so, I would have to stand up and say "Unless you can find some way to demonstrate to the contrary, Belkin is bullshit. We do not have to credit what you claim Belkin says."


Marilyn: I don't feel like people need to be correct for me to respect their right to believe as they choose.

Sure they have the "right." I'm not talking about forced conversion here.

But doesn't anybody care about not having it wrong?

Marilyn, thanks again for sharing this discussion with me. I don't believe you would wish for me to refrain from stating my views, so I am proceeding, but please do not feel this is directed at you personally.


Marilyn: You are correct that the main piece of Christianity is accepting Jesus.

The main piece of Christianity is accepting Jesus....or else. This is wrong.




Marilyn: However, I don't believe that all people are trying to manipulate others into anything.

True, a lot of people are better than this. I have found that most folks are pretty good, decent people, despite whatever lame crap their religion is offering up. Most Christian people are good in spite of the fact that the main tenet of their religion is a manipulative threat.

However, many people are using this threat to manipulate others, which is not surprising since that is what it was designed for.

Even if no Christian ever tried to use this threat - and we both know they do - the fact that the threat exists is really, really lame. As the central tenet, it casts doubt on every aspect of Christianity which follows from this pathetic, manipulative beginning.


Marilyn: Accepting Jesus isn't just about the afterlife. The point is to experience the peace and love of God now.

This is slightly different but it is just as lame. God is not required for peace and love. Jesus is not required for peace and love. The premise of Christianity, that humans are born defective ("sinners") and cannot have a good life or a good death without divine intervention, is a coersive load with nothing to back it up.

Particularly horrific is the ongoing scam about "original sin." Even though we now know that there is no way that Adam and Eve were the first people, and that they probably never existed outside of myth, we are still somehow required to accept the premise that Eve picked the wrong fruit and brought dissolution, shame, evil, and the necessity of "saving" on every human being.

This is manipulative crap, and the whole "sin" thing looks like an another attempt to threaten, coerce, and play people for fools.


Marilyn: I personally don't think God wants people to be "scared" into loving him.

Who cares what God wants? God isn't the one calling the shots. People are the ones doing the preaching, the missioning, the converting. People are the ones doing Christianity. God could have the best of intentions, but since He is not the one doing the doing, His intentions have no meaning.


Marilyn:I think this is clear with the example Jesus gave as to how to treat others.

I have seen this stated similarly before. Jesus was a great man! Therefore, Christianity is great. However it doesn't follow.

Jesus, as portrayed, was a great guy. However it is possible to utilize the wisdom of his words and his example without buying into the "Jesus or burn" thing. It is not necessary to have faith that Jesus is deific in order to do unto others.

And Jesus' enlightenment does not do anything to redeem the crap stuff in the faith. It exists in spite of His brilliant example.


Marilyn: I absolutely agree with you that there are a lot of Christians who will use the threat and that when they do, it's absolutely wrong.

It's unavoidable. How do Christians avoid using threats when the central tenet is a threat? How can they possibly avoid being manipulative when the whole fabric of the religion is based on coersion?

Love your neighbor...or else God won't like it. And trust me, you don't want that!


Marilyn: Obviously it has to start with a belief.

Yes. A really lame, shitty belief.


Marilyn: But, because there are so many loving, humble Christians then it can't be the belief alone.

Beliefs don't exist "alone." They exist inside people's heads. Beliefs consist entirely of what people think about them and what people do about them.

But as I said, people are pretty good. Good people can be loving and humble in spite of Christianity. However Christians do not own the franchise on loving and humble.

There is no reason to think that there is something special and good about Christianity that is magically making people loving and humble. Loving and humble people exist in every faith and without faith. Christianity doesn't get the credit. People are loving and humble in spite of it, not because of it.


Marilyn: So, it was Muslims who flew the planes into the towers. Does this mean that the Muslim faith as a whole is to blame? Or is it the people who are chosing to manipulate the faith for their own purpose?

Ah yes, our old friends the terrorist jihadis.

The parts of the Muslim faith which instruct believers to kill infidels is to blame. People would not be choosing to use it to manipulate the faith in that manner if that did not exist. People are also to blame, but that doesn't let the faith off the hook.


Marilyn: You have to believe in the unseen, the unproved! When I met my husband everyone told me he was bad for me. But I had faith in our love that defied all logic.

Sorry, this is nothing like the same thing. For one, many women have had this exact same faith and it didn't work for them, they got nothing but pain and heartache. This is no lesson that faith pays off.

For another, faith that you will "get your man" is earthly faith, not religious faith. It is faith in something that can actually happen within the bounds of the laws of physics. Faith in a bunch of stuff that is magical, and that remains, and always will, mere speculation, is a completely different order of wishful thinking.

ChaosKid:Okay I was watching this documentary on PBS about the Mormon church and was blown away to see that the Mormons have compiled a list of 2 billion names of the world's dead and are proceeding to baptize them into the Mormon faith.... where the hell do these nut jobs get off?

What do you think of baptizing the dead?

I heard that you can get to Heaven if you are baptized after death, but you end up owing and usually get hit with a lot of late fees.



Tea Earl Grey: This has got to be a joke. lol


I heard it straight from a guy who says he heard it straight from God.


Tea Earl Grey: LMAO



8-14-13 12:11  •  Fuck Money

Weird blast from the past. This conversation took place in 2008 right after the financial crash, right before the election.

I can't believe how much people let money control their lives. "With a Democrat as president I'll have less money! Those lazy scumbag poor people want all my money! Good social services would mean less money for me!"

Because it's all about the money. Not less money...more money! Money, money, money!

Does anyone care about anything besides money?


Sunday:Well, if I ended up with less money, then yes, I would be pissed. I don't worry about having more because we have plenty, but less is not good.

Until the next bump in the road.


BJQ: Well then we'll deal with it, like we always do.

If you mean by stressing, pacing and fighting, then that seems fine if that's how you guys like to run it.

BJQ: That was an extreme case, and is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

I hope you are right. However economists and other people analyzing our country's financial dynamics are saying that the roller-coaster ride has just begun.

And, as you point out, if you are the stressing-pacing-fighting kind, it can kick up around anything.

We made a conscious decision long ago not to stress, pace or fight about anything, least of all money. It has served us very well over the years. Particularly lately. When the news about the financial crisis hit, we were literally the only two people we knew who did not fly into a panic.


LL: Why do you so hate anyone with money?

You have misunderstood. I hate no one. I've never said a mean word to anyone. Saying "Fuck money" is not the same as saying "Fuck those people." Money is just a thing, it will not be offended.

However I am somewhat bothered by people who say "Fuck those people" because those people don't have money. It's a shame. They are our brothers and sisters as much as anyone, and we do ourselves a disservice by dismissing them.


LL: But it comes across that you lump everyone with money into a greedy, materialistic stereotype.

Huge amounts of wealth are not usually accumulated unintentionally. It takes an effort of will. I would say a certain amount of greedy materialism would be almost a given in anyone who focuses their effort on amassing vast wealth. If they weren't at least somewhat greedy and materialstic, why would they even bother?

And, as you can see, many people do not shy away from describing themselves as materialistic. In fact they seem pretty happy about it. If that's their choice of where to expend their energy and derive their enjoyment in life, then power to them.

But that would not work for me.


LL: You seem to lump all wealthy people in one greedy group.

Well, allow me to clarify. For the purpose of this conversation, my references to greedy people refer to any greedy people, wherever they land on the wealth scale. Some very poor people are greedy too and I certainly wouldn't want to imply otherwise.

But the original purpose of the conversation is to discuss money, and how it comes to be a dominating force in most people's lives, whether they want it to or not. Because our system is all about the money, and our culture is all about the money, and our politics are all about the money. There are very few people who are willing or able to look beyond the confines of the money discussion to notice that there are actually other issues at play.

Particularly for people who are voting in this election on money issues. If someone says "I'm for Politician X because it means more money for me!" then I have to wonder if that hasn't become an overriding motivation to exclusion of all else.

Money isn't everything. However you couldn't tell that from listening to your average American.


Sunday: But wanting money isn't greed, it's just self-preservation.

Fair enough. But I would like to point out that most Americans survived the Great Depression with practically NO money. They grew gardens, they did odd jobs, they bartered. They tightened their belts and learned to make do with a lot less. They got by. And they still laughed.

If this is what our country is facing, it will cause a lot less heartache if people know that lean times are not necessarily sad times. If we care for one another, work together, and don't lose our sense of humor, we can get through it, even without much money. Our grandparents did it and so could we.

Lastly, I would point out that politically, the economic crisis has totally eclipsed two gigantic elephants in the room - one, that American foreign militarism has been a total failure, and two, that global warming is increasing at an alarming pace.

You are overstating my position. I have never said anything to the effect that wanting to put food on the table or provide the basics equals greed.

To the contrary, I have emphasized that our children lack for absolutely nothing, even though we don't have much money. We don't have anything fancy but we're perfectly happy with that. We don't feel like we're missing out on the "finer things" because we know that is completely unnecessary and not what it takes to build a happy life.

We could double our family income tomorrow if I resumed my career, but we decided having this time at home with the kids was more important than having more money for more things. Because money isn't everything.

And, believe it or not, we could certainly tighten our belts even more if the tax bill came a little higher, especially if we knew that money was helping to provide basics for people who don't even have that much. (Though, I'm not one of these people that thinks Obama is secretly out to raise our taxes.)

The upshot is, we are not basing our plan for life on how to get ever-increasingly larger amounts of money. Other than as a tool to get by, money is not important. And if the economy collapses and there is no money, we'll find a way to get by then too.

The point is not to fear. I can say "fuck money" because I trust myself and my husband and I know we could find a way to get by even if there was no money. We are not losing sleep over it. And we're definitely not voting on the promises of who will be better for our personal bank account. Our other concerns are just as, if not far more, important.


LL:If you look closely, it is small business and individuals who are working to become millionaires who will be oppressed and pushed back down.

Sorry, I can't really bring myself to feel a ton of sympathy for all those poor saps who are struggling to become millionaires. Just missing millionaire isn't exactly tragic. In fact, some people might actually consider just missing millionaire to be a success story, if they weren't obsessed with having more, more, more.

You can only be "oppressed and pushed back down" by money if you care about it. If you can show a little detachment, the oppressors chains are ripped away.


Just for fun, here are some of this morning's headlines:

Paulson vows action on crisis as earnings stagger

World leaders to meet on economy in Washington

Oil falls below US$69 on US recession fears

Northern Trust swings to 3Q loss

Merck 3Q net drops 28 percent; to cut 7,200 jobs

Weak earnings rouse worries about global recession

British prime minister: recession likely in UK

European markets extend losses

Boeing's 3Q profit dives 38 percent

Wachovia reports $23.9B loss for 3Q

European markets follow Asia down


Fun, huh? And this is just today.


The point is this. If you insist on tying your personal happiness to money, it doesn't matter who gets elected, the coming years are going to bring you a lot of grief. Everyone in America is going to be losing money by the boatloads because the economy is tanking. If you love money, prepare to get your heart broken. If you love more money, prepare to be disappointed.

I would suggest making the focus of your happiness something other than money. In this kind of market, it would definitely be a better investment.


LL: If you want to suggest that there are better things to focus on than making and growing money - GREAT! Many would agree with you.

Not many have here. Most of the responses in this discussion have been talking up how great and important and worthy money is. Mmm, yummy money!

The question was, does anyone care about anything besides money, and for the most part the answer was a resounding "Nope! Money rules!"

So, here's a centerfold for everyone to drool over:

Slightly higher tax is no more force than any other taxes. And if you are hoping to abolish all taxes, you are going to be seriously disappointed, because collecting taxes is how the government works and I don't see that changing.

But here's a cheerful thought for you. All you need to do is work harder, pick up a few extra shifts or something, and make better decisions about how to invest your money. Then you can become one of the Super-Wealthy Elite and you won't have anything to worry about.

LL: Even if we privately agree that a different focus might make a person happier...

I'm always glad to offer useful suggestions for happiness. It certainly works for me and my family. It's the kind of investment that can never fail.


Sunday:I cannot see you being so carefree about it, if you were homeless with three children or could not afford to feed those children.

That is exactly how we were when we had no jobs, no income and a bankruptcy. We kept calm and worked various angles until we eventually muddled through.

What we didn't do was cry, get depressed, pace the floors, complain, stress, or argue. We played with the children and kept them happy. We found new ways to play with old toys.


Sunday: I do wonder, why is it such a horrible idea to you that some of us like nice things?

I like nice things too. My nice things didn't cost much money but that doesn't mean they aren't nice or that I don't like them. However, even the nicest thing is just a thing.


Sunday:So, what I want to know is, what do you think people like me, who work for a living, make good money, should do with MY money?

You can do whatever you want with it while you have it. I have no suggestions for how you should use your money. I'm not an expert at using money, and I never claimed to be.

However I could give you plenty of advice on how to be happy with very little money.

What I am describing is a very useful attitude to have towards money, and that is, fuck it. It's not that big a deal.

If money becomes very important to you, things get very unhappy very fast when the money flow is interrupted. Like it or not, all that you have worked and saved your whole life for can be gone in an instant. Unless you want to go completely insane when that happens, a little detachment is a good idea.



8-13-13 8:13  •  Smoking the Quran

Remember back in 2010 when an Australian lawyer named Alex Stewart smoked a page out of the Quran and posted in on YouTube? It was reported that he was to be fired from his job. Here's a conversation I had about it at the time.



Xeena: Stewart's video, in which he describes the Bible and quran as "just books", is deeply hurtful to Muslims, said Sheik Muhammad Wahid, president of the Islamic Association of Australia.